1 1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 2 AND THE 3 WESTERN AREA POWER ADMINISTRATION 4 JOINT OUTREACH TEAM 5 LISTENING SESSION 6 "DEFINING THE FUTURE" 7 8 AUGUST 2, 2012 9 6:04 P.M. 10 HOLIDAY INN CITY CENTRE 11 100 WEST 8TH STREET 12 SIOUX FALLS, SOUTH DAKOTA 13 14 INTRODUCTION BY: 15 MR. ROBERT J. HARRIS Regional Manager 16 Upper Great Plains Region Western Area Power Administration 17 P.O. Box 35800 Billings, Montana 59107-5800 18 19 OPENING COMMENTS BY: 20 MS. LAUREN AZAR Senior Advisor to the Secretary 21 Office of the Secretary U.S. Department of Energy 22 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Room 7F091 23 Washington, DC 20585 24 REPORTED BY: 25 Terri Lembcke Schildhauer, RPR Sioux Falls, South Dakota 2 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 INTRODUCTION 4 By Mr. Harris: 4 5 OPENING COMMENTS 6 By Ms. Azar: 5 7 8 COMMENTS BY: 9 Gary Hanson 14 10 Korwin Johnson 18 11 Richard Burud 19 12 Ted Coombes 22 13 Allen Crowser 23 14 Thomas Graves 25 15 Tom Heller 26 16 Don Marker 29 17 Jim Moore 33 18 Jake Wipf 35 19 Robert Sahr 37 20 James Ryken 41 21 Harold Schiebout 43 22 Gary Sharp 45 23 Jon Soderholm 47 24 Josh Gackle 49 25 Dennis Walstra 51 3 1 INDEX (Continued) 2 PAGE 3 COMMENTS BY (Resumed): 4 Steve Wegman 56 5 Dan Zulkosky 57 6 Bill Schwandt 60 7 Sue Kelly 63 8 Brad Schardin 66 9 Chris Vandeventer 68 10 Bruce Pontow 71 11 Ronald Neiss 73 12 Brett Hoffman 78 13 Jarod Johnson 80 14 Benjamin Ready 82 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 MR. HARRIS: I would like to welcome everyone tonight 2 to the final Listening Session. My name is Bob Harris for 3 those of you who don't know me. I am the Regional Manager 4 here in the Upper Great Plains for Western Area Power 5 Administration and it's my great pleasure to be able to 6 provide this short welcome. It's nice to see that everybody 7 turned out. I really appreciate and the team really 8 appreciates all the effort and energy that you have all put 9 into preparing your comments for tonight's Listening Session 10 as well as your participation in today's Workshop. I think 11 the Workshops have all gone very well. There has been a lot 12 of input and there is a lot of good material to take back and 13 try to put together into some recommendations. So I 14 appreciate it. 15 I think you have all heard the schedule so we won't 16 delve into that. Tonight's Listening Session will be run by 17 Lauren Azar. Lauren is the Senior Advisor to Secretary Chu. 18 And she was, before taking this position, Public Service 19 Commissioner in the great state of Wisconsin. So she has 20 quite a bit of experience in our area. She was instrumental 21 in organizing The Eight States of the Rockies 22 Interconnection-Wide Transmission Plan and that organization 23 continues today and is very effective. So unless there is any 24 questions of me, I would like to turn it over to Lauren and 25 get started with tonight's session so that we can have our 5 1 comments and go home. Lauren? Thank you for attending. 2 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much, Bob. And good 3 evening, everybody. This is a fantastic turnout, so I 4 appreciate everybody coming in. And for those who actually 5 sat through and participated in the Workshops today, I 6 appreciate your stamina because I know it's going to be close 7 to a 12-hour day for those folks who actually participate in 8 the Workshops and then stay for the Listening Session tonight. 9 We have had so far six -- no, five different 10 substantive Workshops and six Listening Sessions starting in 11 Rapid City, South Dakota. We then went to Montana, have been 12 to Phoenix, California, Colorado, and now returning to South 13 Dakota. You should be quite proud of yourselves because you 14 are the only state in which we have appeared twice. 15 During the sessions, both the Listening Sessions and 16 the Workshops, we have heard quite a lot from customers, 17 stakeholders, and state agencies, and we very much appreciate 18 it and learned a lot. 19 I want to give you a few of the snippets and overall 20 summaries of some of the things that we heard over the last 21 three weeks, including we are hearing it -- some of the very 22 same things that we heard today. Probably the most resounding 23 comment that has been heard is that folks are worried about 24 the impact on rates that this initiative may have. And the 25 bottom line is that Western has a core mission of delivering 6 1 power from the federal hydroelectric dams to its customers at 2 cost and that's not going to change. So I wanted to put 3 everybody's souls at rest with regards to that. 4 We started off, like I said, in South Dakota. And 5 one of the things that struck me the most at that Listening 6 Session was to hear from the farmers who talked about the need 7 for affordable electricity to ensure that they were able to 8 irrigate their crops to feed this nation and the world. And 9 you know, that same theme with regards to look, we are in 10 tough economic times, we need to make sure that any 11 improvements that are done are cost-effective. And we heard 12 that throughout to make sure that the folks that are dealing 13 with difficult economic times can indeed continue to afford 14 their electricity. 15 We also heard that beneficiaries should pay. And 16 should any investments be made, the tenet at Western and 17 indeed I can tell you the tenet throughout the electric 18 industry is beneficiaries should pay. If you're going to 19 benefit from an investment, it's those folks that should be 20 paying for that investment. As a former commissioner, that 21 was a strong tenet in my state as well. 22 The use of large electric water heaters somebody 23 today said that has gone quote, unquote, viral I think is the 24 term that I heard. And the issue there is as follows: There 25 is a recent federal policy that's going to phase out the use 7 1 of large electric water heaters. And the comment was look, if 2 you want some good ways in which to regulate the transmission 3 system and provide some cost-effective storage, which on some 4 levels is the holy grail for a lot of those, for a lot of us 5 working in the electric industry, you should be looking at 6 those large electric water heaters. Large electric water 7 heaters in the rural areas are akin to electric vehicle 8 charging stations in the urban areas because those charging 9 stations can also be used as regulators for the transmission 10 grid and storage components. So the folks started in Rapid 11 City, the folks in Rapid City said, "Hey, you know what? We 12 don't need EV charging stations here because nobody is -- 13 there is not going to be enough concentration. But gosh darn 14 it, we have enough of those large electric water heaters that 15 you should take a really good look at." 16 We also heard loudly and clearly from all the 17 regions, but possibly the loudest here, is that each of 18 Western's regions is unique, and not only unique in relation 19 to its assets it holds as well as the operations of those 20 assets, but also its relationship to its customers. I was a 21 little surprised to hear, and you may be as well, because I 22 don't think it's true here, but in some of Western's regions 23 the cost being charged at the, you know, at cost rates that 24 are being charged actually are now exceeding the market rates 25 in those areas, which of course creates special challenges for 8 1 those portions of the Western service territory. 2 Aging infrastructure is also a pretty significant 3 concern in certain project areas. I understand it's not a 4 concern here, but in Western and in certain project areas it's 5 quite a significant challenge that they are having to deal 6 with. 7 And we also have heard loudly and clearly and we 8 heard this again today is you know what? Things are just 9 fine. Western is working darn well with its customers and you 10 know what? We don't quite know why, why this initiative is 11 even happening. So let me talk to you about why this 12 initiative is happening. And this comes from sort of a 13 perspective of working in the electric industry for a while. 14 The electric sector is changing right now throughout 15 this nation, probably more dramatically than it's changed in 16 its entire history. In fact, I was just talking with 17 Commissioner Hanson and we were noting that this is an 18 incredibly exciting time to be a commissioner in the electric 19 sector just because of the amount of change that's happening. 20 Secondly, over the last 75 years the PMAs -- the 21 first PMA was created 75 years ago. And over those 75 years 22 Congress has continued to lay on new responsibilities onto the 23 PMAs. And in addition to Congress, of course FERC and NERC 24 have also laid new responsibilities onto the PMAs, some of 25 which have come out as, you know, recently as a few months 9 1 ago. So the PMAs have to continue to respond to those 2 changing responsibilities in addition to the changes in the 3 electric sector. Either one of those would be significant to 4 deal with. 5 The new challenges and threats in the electric sector 6 as well as these changes in responsibilities are what prompted 7 this initiative. Through his March 16 memo the Secretary 8 asked the PMAs to respond, along with the other participants 9 in the electric sector, to respond to the threats and 10 challenges that we are seeing with regards to the grid, the 11 aging infrastructure. And the overall task that the Secretary 12 has called upon the electric sector to do is to ensure that 13 this nation has a resilient and flexible transmission grid. 14 And let me tell you he is not the only one who is 15 making this call. I was just in a meeting last Monday in 16 which the head of the Trade Associations for the 17 municipalities, the cooperatives, the investor owned 18 utilities, as well as the nuclear operators, and some of the 19 CEOs of the largest utility companies in the nation, they 20 actually asked to have a meeting with Secretary Chu and 21 Secretary Poneman for the purpose of asking for a collective 22 response and action to the grid to make sure that the grid 23 remains resilient. Because as I think everybody in here -- if 24 you just look in folks' briefcases and when you go home and 25 you look at your pivots, you know that electricity is the 10 1 lifeblood of this nation and we need to have a resilient grid. 2 So the Secretary as well as those folks that attended that 3 meeting said we need to work together. In fact, the private 4 sector said to the two Secretaries, "We need to have a 5 public-private partnership to make sure we are working 6 together lockstep to make sure that this grid can stay up and 7 stay up regardless of any challenges and threats that we may 8 have, any changes in the electric sector." 9 And as you know, the PMAs, they are part of the DOE, 10 they own a significant portion of this nation's electric grid. 11 Indeed, somebody did the calculations, it's not mine, but I 12 heard about six percent of the critical electric 13 infrastructure in this nation is owned and operated by the 14 Federal Power Marketing Administrations. So the Secretary is 15 calling on the Federal Power Marketing Administrations to help 16 in this initiative to ensure that our country can have its 17 lifeblood of electricity remain and that we can continue to 18 have -- be competitive in the global economy, we can have a 19 safe, reliable, and affordable electric supply through having 20 a flexible and resilient electric grid. 21 Let me just -- I think I mentioned this, but I want 22 to emphasize that the Secretary, Secretary Chu, is not 23 singling out the PMAs. And I think that's been a fundamental 24 theme I have been hearing is, well, why is the Secretary, you 25 know, why is he calling on the PMAs to do this? He is not 11 1 singling out the PMAs. Indeed he wants all the participants 2 in the electric sector to do this. Of course, the only 3 federal assets that are actually controlled by the DOE are 4 indeed the PMAs. So when he -- he essentially is saying, you 5 know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So 6 I'm calling on the other folks in the electric sector to stand 7 up and make sure we have a flexible and resilient grid. He is 8 looking in the mirror and saying we need to make sure that the 9 DOE is doing precisely the same thing. 10 So I hope everybody in this room also shares in the 11 same goals with regards to ensuring that our nation continues 12 to have a flexible and resilient grid in order for us to 13 remain competitive in the global economy, and have a secure 14 and affordable electric supply. 15 So really then the question is, and what the 16 workshops have been intended to get at, is what is Western's 17 role in achieving those goals and achieving those shared 18 goals? Given the amount of infrastructure that they own, what 19 should Western be doing? And we have been hearing a lot of 20 wonderful ideas from customers and stakeholders and state 21 agencies over the last three weeks. 22 Though the following is not an issue in the Upper 23 Great Plains, I do just want to point out some of the aging 24 infrastructure issues that Western is having to face in some 25 of the areas of its footprint. And these numbers relate to 12 1 the number of wood poles and lines so it's somewhat of a 2 generalization. But to take the overall snapshot, 61 percent 3 of Western's wood poles are 50 years or older. And 4 manufacturers state that the expected life of a wood pole is 5 50 years old. Seventeen percent are between 40 and 50 years 6 old. Which means 78 percent of Western's wood poles are at or 7 exceed the manufacturer's expected life of those assets. 8 Similarly with the transformers, 24 percent are 40 9 years old. And 40 years is again roughly the manufacturer's 10 expected life of those assets. Six percent are nearing that 11 age. So about a third of Western's transformers are nearing 12 their expected lifetime. 13 What that says to me first of all is that Western has 14 done a phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal job of maintaining 15 those assets because those that have exceeded the 16 manufacturer's expected life means that Western's done such a 17 good job of maintaining that that those assets are remaining 18 long after they should have been replaced. But the bottom 19 line is at some point in time, and like I say, I'm getting 20 older as well, you know, age, though it's not the definitive 21 as to when things are moving along, it does speak to when 22 things are ultimately going to have to be replaced. 23 So I look forward to hearing from you all tonight. I 24 wanted to just briefly -- I think there is quite a lot of 25 folks here that did not attend the substantive workshops so 13 1 let me tell you a little bit about what this initiative is 2 vis-a-vis the mechanics of it. There is a Joint Outreach Team 3 affectionately referred to as JOT, which is a joint team of 4 experts from Western and the DOE. They have convened, they 5 have been attending and facilitating all of these Workshops 6 and Listening Sessions, and they are going to take in the 7 input they have received from all of that. They are also 8 going to take in the input that they have received online at 9 the following Website, which is JOT@wapa.gov. 10 They are going to take input from Western of course 11 during their normal course of business doing a stellar job in 12 taking a look at improvements that they should be taking. So 13 we are going to -- they are going to take those reports as 14 data points as well and they are going to get together and use 15 their expertise to come up with some draft recommendations in 16 response to the Secretary's call to the PMAs. Those 17 recommendations will then be published in the Federal 18 Register. And we will again ask for your input on whether or 19 not you think the JOT team hit the mark with regards to 20 recommendations on how to ensure that the grid remains 21 flexible and resilient and Western's role in that endeavor. 22 Ultimately then the JOT will be finalizing its 23 recommendations, sending them to Secretary Chu, who will be 24 deliberating over which ones or all of them, whether or not 25 which ones we will be adopting as the bottom line. 14 1 So I just wanted to thank you again for coming. I 2 think this may be the highest, highest attendance list of all 3 the Listening Sessions so it's great to go out with a bang. 4 Let me say that how we are going to do it tonight, 5 just given the sheer number of folks, is we are going to allow 6 three minutes for everybody to talk to make sure everybody has 7 the opportunity to talk. Please also, by the way, remember 8 that if you don't have a chance to talk or if you know 9 somebody who couldn't travel here to give oral remarks, they 10 can submit them online. I'm going to call folks' names. Come 11 up, please spell your name, speak slowly. And if you are 12 reading from a document, I can tell you that you will make the 13 court reporter's night if you give her your written comments 14 so that she can check those against the hard work that she is 15 doing right now. I think that's it. 16 So let me call -- I'm going to call my former 17 colleague and somebody I worked with in-depth and in long 18 hours, Commissioner Gary Hanson from the South Dakota Public 19 Service Commission. Gary and I worked long and hard on 20 transmission issues both in the MISO as well as the Eastern 21 Area Connection. So Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER GARY HANSON: Thank you, Lauren. Good 23 evening. My name is Gary Hanson, H-A-N-S-O-N. I am a 24 Commissioner with the South Dakota Public Utilities 25 Commission. With me this evening -- and I will do my best to 15 1 stay within the three minutes; however, I don't practice 2 remarks with a process of speaking slowly, so I will speak 3 slowly for the court reporter, which might take a little bit 4 longer. With me here this evening are my fellow Commissioners 5 Chris Nelson and Kristie Fiegen, and we also have an analyst 6 from the South Dakota PUC, Greg Rislov. 7 We have a number of concerns. Before I start my 8 concerns, if you're ready with the stop clock there, I just 9 would like to say that we are all very thrilled to see former 10 Commissioner Azar step into a position with Secretary Chu. We 11 know that you have a very strong, in-depth knowledge of what 12 we can accomplish on the local level. And for that reason, 13 that's one of the reasons that we are quite excited. I will 14 go through my concerns as best I can and I would like to add 15 that we have submitted written remarks and so I'm just going 16 to highlight those written remarks. 17 Our concerns stem from the fact that the low cost 18 federal hydropower supplied by WAPA has been extremely 19 important to mitigate the costs and keep the electric rates of 20 our rural municipal and public facilities affordable. WAPA 21 has historically done an excellent job addressing these needs. 22 South Dakota PUC wishes to strongly recommend that 23 neither WAPA nor DOE engage in policies or measures to promote 24 secondary policy agendas at the risk of jeopardizing or adding 25 nonessential expenses to the primary and critical objective of 16 1 providing low cost power to this area. I know that you went 2 through those. I'm probably going to highlight some of the 3 remarks that you have already made, but we do wish to 4 emphasize those. The South Dakota PUC shares the concerns 5 about negative seams effects, intersystem constraints, and the 6 need to stay current on system reliability, evaluation, and 7 investment. However, we also believe that these matters are 8 best handled at the PMA or even at the sub-PMA regional level. 9 With respect to energy efficiency and demand 10 response, the South Dakota PUC believes that such issues must 11 be dealt with at the distribution level. The Touchstone 12 Energy Cooperatives is one example of an organization that has 13 pursued a vigorous program of demand response and energy 14 efficiency for many years with truly outstanding results. We 15 would point out that they could even be used as a model for 16 the rest of the nation on what they have accomplished. 17 In the case of large scale renewable energy inputs, 18 secondary effects such as system regulation and ancillary 19 service demands can take on a different scale of significance 20 than are presented by legacy resources. These are best 21 understood and dealt with at the regional balancing authority 22 level. 23 We urge WAPA and DOE to be mindful that implementing 24 an aggressive renewable energy policy possesses challenges 25 distinct from the narrowly focused and largely incremental 17 1 improvements dictated by the traditional generation and 2 transmission system. 3 WAPA's territory covers a diversity of geographic and 4 demographic areas, each with its own set of issues. We share 5 the concerns expressed by WAPA customers with WAPA's pursuit 6 of programs and creation of rate structures to incentivize 7 programs. These programs have potential, however, to divert 8 WAPA from its mission to generate and transmit electricity at 9 cost-based rates. 10 We also agree that WAPA should continue the process 11 of evaluating appropriate measures to address seams issues and 12 eliminate or mitigate transmission rate pancaking. These 13 matters are consistent with its core mission. WAPA should 14 not, however, be diverted from its primary, statutory, and 15 critical purpose of delivering hydropower to its customers at 16 cost-based rates. 17 In keeping with our concerns, we have proposed and 18 provided approximately 27 questions that we believe should be 19 examined thoroughly and answered before any actions are taken 20 place. 21 Forgive me for reading that, but in order to stay 22 somewhat on time I needed to. If you have any questions, we 23 would be happy to answer them. Thank you. 24 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much. Next is Korwin 25 Johnson. 18 1 MR. KORWIN JOHNSON: Hi. My name is Korwin Johnson. 2 I represent Agralite Cooperative. Johnson is J-O-H-N-S-O-N, 3 Korwin is K-O-R-W-I-N. Agralite Electric Cooperative is a 4 small distribution cooperative in west central Minnesota. 5 Though we don't operate transmission, over the course of time 6 we have become heavily dependent upon the WAPA system to 7 deliver low cost, reliable electricity to our rural farms. 8 Over the course of time we have done a lot to make 9 our system more dynamic. We have a very mature demand side 10 management program incorporating over 1,800 storage water 11 heaters, 1,500 storage heat systems. During our recent peak 12 system, our all-time record peak system, we were able to 13 reduce our peak by 40 percent through our load management. 14 We are a system that has approximately 30 percent 15 renewable energy. We have 20 percent hydropower through WAPA, 16 and we have approximately 10 percent wind energy on our system 17 delivered to our rural members. We have also taken the 18 initiative to interconnect about three megawatts of anaerobic 19 digesters into our system. We do that through the 20 distribution and in turn that flows on to the transmission 21 grid. We have done what we can to become more energy 22 efficient over time. 23 When I began 30 years ago, one of my first projects 24 with the cooperative was to review our economic conductor 25 analysis, not to implement, not to look at one, but to review 19 1 an existing program. We had done loss evaluations of all our 2 equipment for 30 plus years to become as efficient and low 3 cost system as possible. We are constantly looking at 4 improving our system to become more dynamic and more realtime. 5 We have realtime data onto our system. We have realtime meter 6 reading data available at the flip of a button or look at our 7 computer screen. 8 And these are things that we have done all along. 9 It's not because of a directive from DOE or a directive from 10 RUS, but it's what we see as best for our rural members. It 11 helps us to deliver low cost, reliable power. 12 And I guess the one thing I would encourage is for no 13 one to interfere with our low cost power providers. They 14 provide us with an extremely high level of electricity, even 15 through some of the most difficult times. And I appreciate 16 the good service we have received from our good friend at 17 Western. Thank you. 18 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much. Richard Burud. 19 MR. RICHARD BURUD: I'm Richard Burud, B-U-R-U-D. I 20 am the General Manager of Nobles Cooperative Electric in 21 Worthington, Minnesota, and Federated Rural Electric in 22 Jackson, Minnesota. Both cooperatives have about 5,000 23 members and do have allocations from WAPA. 24 First I want to thank you for a chance to make some 25 comments because as everybody here knows, the Chu memo has 20 1 created or caused some concern from the preference customers. 2 I think the first one, and I'm glad that it came out, was do 3 no harm with this process. I think many of us felt at the 4 beginning that there probably was harm to do in this process 5 so I think that is paramount and I'm glad to see Ms. Azar 6 comment to that. 7 And the other one is that the beneficiary of the 8 transmission pays. That is critical to this system. 9 Today has already been about I don't know, 12 hours 10 or so. But one thing that I think also came out in this 11 region, and I think we all believe it probably more now than 12 we did in the past, is that we need to allow the PMAs to use 13 the regional concept, not a WAPA-wide concept. You know, this 14 system, one size doesn't fit all. And there is a lot of 15 differences in WAPA as we see and as we go across the United 16 States. 17 Going into an area that Kory just did, demand side 18 management, distribution generation, energy efficiency, being 19 in Minnesota, I hate to say it, we probably lead the nation in 20 that where we have to, we are mandated for energy efficiency 21 to one and a half percent. I think that this region is 22 different maybe than other regions that WAPA is our base 23 supplier, not our supplemental supplier. So as we do those 24 things, it definitely or directly affects the supplemental 25 supply, not the WAPA supply. Although I think it would be 21 1 good probably to have WAPA monitor our actions so some of the 2 things that you heard Kory say, and I'm sure others will say, 3 are in the record and people are aware of what all the WAPA 4 customers are doing. 5 Another area that -- probably one other area there, I 6 guess I'm going to make a statement here, I've already said it 7 in Denver, but the DOE should endorse the utility controlled 8 water heater exempt. I believe it needs to be done. And I 9 think we can dance around it, but I just said it. I believe 10 it has to. It should be done for the good of all. 11 I would like to talk a little bit about the IS system 12 as we all also are members of Basin Electric. I believe DOE 13 should allow the owners of the IS transmission system which is 14 Basin based in WAPA and Heartland to do their due diligence on 15 determining if they should join or not join in RTO and ISO. I 16 have great confidence in this system and that they will make 17 the right decision for our rate payers at the end of the line. 18 Overall I believe also that WAPA has done an 19 extremely good job for our members of our cooperatives and we 20 are really critical to make sure that their mission continues 21 as in the past. Thank you very much. 22 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Gary Clayton. 23 MR. GARY CLAYTON: I will pass. 24 MS. AZAR: LeRoy Cluever or Cluever? 25 (No response.) 22 1 MS. AZAR: All right. Ted Coombes. 2 MR. TED COOMBES: Coombes for the third time since we 3 have become acquainted. My name is Ted Coombes, 4 C-O-O-M-B-E-S, T-E-D, Executive Director of Southwestern Power 5 Resources Association from Tulsa, Oklahoma, representing the 6 customers of Southwestern Power Administration. I did not 7 intend to use my time tonight. But something was said that I 8 think shouldn't remain unchallenged. 9 I heard in Loveland about the old poles and the old 10 transformers. Tonight I heard about the old poles and the old 11 transformers. In Loveland it was pointed out by Joe Bladow 12 that the idea that these poles were over 50 years old is 13 actually inaccurate because the lines were placed in service 14 50 years ago, but the poles were replaced, were replaced as 15 they needed to be. I understand not only did Mr. Bladow point 16 that out to you, but in fact the Secretary, Acting 17 Secretary -- I'm sorry, the Acting Administrator of WAPA sent 18 that information to you in an e-mail. Well, this is at least 19 the third time. But of course this is our last meeting so we 20 will never get it corrected officially. 21 Let's talk about transformers. We get power out of a 22 dam on the Texas-Oklahoma border that was placed -- the first 23 unit was placed in service in 1945. We have two units there. 24 Now, normally you would have two three-phase transformers, 25 step-up transformers. This has six one-phase transformers 23 1 with a spare. The same transformers are operating today that 2 were placed in service in 1945. Guess what? We are replacing 3 them. Because they are bad? No. They are still good. In 4 fact, if one went out, we have a spare. But we are replacing 5 them because we have rewound the generators. We are putting 6 in new turbines. We are going to get more capacity out of 7 them and those transformers won't support the additional 8 capacity. 9 So there is an economic life and there is a useful 10 life. And somebody who is using their money wisely and 11 efficiently will look at the useful life. They will use the 12 economic life as a guide for when they might have the money in 13 place. But they will use the useful life to replace them. 14 You know, I'm from Oklahoma. Our native son, Will 15 Rogers, said, "A lie can get halfway around the world before 16 the truth gets its boots on." I have also heard it said that 17 all figures lie and all liars figure. I don't know about 18 that. I just know that I wanted to set the record straight 19 tonight. And by the way, Mrs. Azar, you were 15 minutes and 20 17 seconds tonight in your opening statement. Thank you. 21 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Allen Crowser? 22 MR. ALLEN CROWSER: My name is Allen Crowser, 23 A-L-L-E-N, C-R-O-W-S-E-R. I am the General Manager of 24 Alexandria Light and Power, ALP, in Alexandria, Minnesota. 25 And ALP is a firm power customer of Western and I have had 24 1 association with Western since 1980. 2 First of all, I have a general comment. That is 3 this: Much has been said at these meetings that I will not 4 repeat and I'm sure you have all heard it quite a few times, 5 certain things. But to summarize, the WAPA/Pick-Sloan Project 6 has been successful and self-supporting for many years. A 7 change in mission is not needed and ill-advised. My advice 8 would be to drop this Washington-based effort and let this 9 region make its own decisions. 10 On a more positive note, I was encouraged, however, 11 by Secretary Chu's memo that recently referred to pancake 12 transmission rates because transmission pancaking does exist 13 in this region. Pancaking greatly affects our utility in 14 Alexandria. In 2011 it represented ten percent of our total 15 electric department budget, the extra transmission that we 16 made. We are paying double for transmission. Essentially we 17 are subsidizing the costs of the Federal/Integrated System, 18 the IS, to the benefit of those that are directly connected to 19 the system. 20 The region of Western or this region of Western has 21 been slow to join an Independent System Operator which would 22 help to mitigate that pancaking issue in this region. This is 23 true even though they have been experiencing delivery issues 24 to either buy or sell electricity across that nasty seams 25 issue with MISO. 25 1 But we are encouraged that the DOE has recognized the 2 pancaking issue. And that's all I have to say. 3 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much. Leroy Frana? Leroy 4 Frana, Frana. 5 (No response.) 6 MS. AZAR: Maude Richards? 7 (No response.) 8 MS. AZAR: I didn't see her. Tom Graves? 9 MR. THOMAS GRAVES: Thank you. My name is Thomas 10 Graves, G-R-A-V-E-S, and I'm the Executive Director of the 11 Midwest Electric Consumers Association. 12 I would like to further address the issues that 13 Mr. Coombes raised about the aging transmission system. There 14 is no doubt that there are parts of the transmission system 15 that need constant attention, which Western does give them. 16 They regularly inspect the wooden poles. And there are not 17 that many wooden poles that are 50 years old so we should stop 18 saying it. The fact of the matter is that I can remember this 19 issue surfaced over 20 years ago and we talked to Western 20 about it and guess what? Western didn't have the money to do 21 this. If the Department of Energy wants to fix the aging 22 infrastructure, the Department of Energy needs to go to bat 23 against OMB to get Western the money that it needs. 24 This does not contribute to the deficit. The Federal 25 Power Program pays back all of its costs and with interest on 26 1 the capital investment. The interest rate we are paying on 2 new investment right now is much higher than the interest rate 3 the Treasury is charging private sector which is paying about 4 four and a quarter, four and a half percent on the investment. 5 That's fine. That's the deal. 6 But the fact of the matter is the Department of 7 Energy is not picking up the ball and fulfilling its 8 responsibilities in fulfilling Western's mission. The 9 customers have. Our customer funding organization here has 10 put in over the last ten years almost $300 million. Through 11 our rates we have repaid almost a billion dollars of the 12 original investment in Pick-Sloan. What's DOE done? Nothing. 13 If you want the system modernized, let's give them the funding 14 they need. And I don't understand why when they are not 15 getting the funding they need -- why we are talking about 16 expanding the mission. Thank you. 17 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Clayton Halverson? 18 (No response.) 19 MS. AZAR: No. Tom Heller. 20 MR. TOM HELLER: Good evening. My name is Tom 21 Heller. I am the Chief Executive Officer with Missouri River 22 Energy Services. That's T-O-M, H-E-L-L-E-R. Missouri River 23 Energy Services is a Joint Action Agency serving 61 municipal 24 utilities in North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and Iowa. 25 Fifty-nine of our 61 members have WAPA allocations. Of those, 27 1 collectively they represent over 20 percent of the firm power 2 sales that the Upper Great Plains division sells. So any 3 impact or any change that's looked at by WAPA has a tremendous 4 impact on our members. Currently on average our members get 5 45 percent of their energy from WAPA. A great deal of the 6 energy, 55 percent, is provided by Missouri River. 7 We are providing written comments which I believe 8 have probably already been sent in for the record. 9 The March 16 memo from Secretary Chu to WAPA and the 10 PMAs suggest they need to modernize. It has been said many 11 times and I want to reiterate many of these things are already 12 being done and I need to reiterate that a bit. 13 Number one, we are developing renewable energy 14 ourselves. We have vast contracts with hydro or with wind 15 developers, for 12 percent renewable wind beyond the 16 hydroelectric allocations we already have. In addition to 17 that, we are developing a small hydropower project in the 18 state of Iowa, the Red Rock Hydro Project. It's located on 19 the Des Moines River. It will be 36 megawatts. We have a 20 FERC license; hopefully it will be online in 2016. We are 21 going to be spending well over $200 million to develop that 22 resource. They are being developed. 23 Number 2. The Chu memo talks about reducing 24 customers' needs through demand side management and energy 25 conservation. Our members are doing that as well. Through a 28 1 program that we have called Right Energy Solutions we are 2 reducing our growth needs by nearly 50 percent. We have cut 3 back considerably the amount of demand in energy that's 4 required on an annual basis and will continue to do that. 5 We are working with other WAPA customers through 6 Western States Power Corporation to provide funds not supplied 7 by Congress. Tom just talked about that a few minutes ago. 8 Since 1999 Missouri River has provided ourselves $60 million 9 of the $215 million that has been provided by customers in the 10 Upper Great Plains Division to WAPA and the U.S. Corps of 11 Engineers to help upgrade and fix facilities. 12 In addition, there has been a proposal that WAPA 13 needs or the PMAs need to study whether or not to join an RTO 14 to allow them to participate in EIM, Energy Imbalance Market. 15 WAPA, as you have heard, is currently doing that in our 16 region. Please let them go through that process. Please let 17 them evaluate whether or not there is benefits to the 18 customers. They will make the right decision. As we have 19 already also heard, there could be cost shifts. Again, allow 20 us in our region to work those issues out ourselves. 21 I find interesting the May 30 Secretary Chu blog 22 discussed U.S. continued global competitiveness, the fact that 23 the U.S. needs to maintain a good electric system to remain 24 competitive. He suggests WAPA and the PMAs need to modernize 25 for the U.S. to be globally competitive. I think the facts 29 1 are that WAPA power and rates have helped our members and 2 their retail customers keep competitive already. We believe 3 the proposals that are in the memo will needlessly increase 4 electric rates. And these increased electric rates could mean 5 loss of jobs, loss of competitiveness. Our businesses in the 6 Midwest could lose jobs over these proposals that you are 7 having under consideration. 8 If the DOE goal is to build more transmission and 9 allow greater export of renewable energy above what is needed 10 regionally, the beneficiary needs to pay, as you have heard 11 before, not the WAPA power customers. 12 I guess in closing what I would like to request is 13 that the draft recommendations as I've heard that will be 14 developed by the DOE to Secretary Chu be published in the 15 Federal Register and a good time be allowed for us to digest 16 those recommendations and hopefully 90 days given to us so 17 that we have a period to comment on them. 18 And finally, the most important request is for us to 19 see a copy of the final report. I think it would be a tragedy 20 for us to have gone through the process that we have gone 21 through with us not having the ability to see what the final 22 recommendations are to the Secretary. Thank you again for the 23 ability to comment tonight. 24 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much. Don Marker? 25 MR. DON MARKER: Good evening. My name is Don 30 1 Marker. I am General Manager of Sioux Valley Energy. And 2 just like Commissioner Hanson, I do have printed materials and 3 comments this evening. And in the interest of staying both on 4 point and on time, I apologize also for reading those 5 comments, but I will do that. 6 Sioux Valley Energy is a nonprofit member-owned 7 distribution electric cooperative serving more than 22,000 8 member customers in a seven-county area of east central South 9 Dakota and southwest Minnesota. Sioux Valley Energy relies 10 very heavily on power and integrated transmission from the 11 Western Area Power Administration. 12 Sioux Valley Energy disagrees with the Department of 13 Energy's assessment of and plans for the Federal Power 14 Marketing Administrations. Unfortunately, we believe that 15 Secretary Chu was working off a flawed premise that all PMAs 16 are created equal and that there is a need for new programs 17 and initiatives. This flawed premise, if acted upon, will 18 undoubtedly result in flawed outcomes. 19 Secretary Chu was actually invited by Sioux Valley 20 Energy to attend and take part in an Energy Symposium last 21 year right here in Sioux Falls. He declined our invitation. 22 This symposium would have provided the Secretary an 23 opportunity to learn more about the integrated transmission 24 system of the Western Area Power Administration and regional 25 utilities like Sioux Valley Energy. Had Secretary Chu 31 1 attended this event, it would have been beneficial to his 2 understanding of the current PMAs system, which works. 3 As an example, Sioux Valley Energy serves electricity 4 to what's known as a Tier 4 data processing center called 5 Automatic Data Processing or ADP. ADP is one of the world's 6 largest providers of business outsourcing solutions such as 7 payroll, tax, and human resources. 8 Headquartered in Roseland, New Jersey, ADP a few 9 years ago was looking for a site to build a new data 10 processing facility. And they had several requirements, which 11 included complete redundancy and near perfect reliability of 12 99.995 percent. They chose to locate within our service 13 territory because of the highly reliable transmission system 14 and cost-effective rates that we could provide, thanks to the 15 Western Area Power Administration and regional utilities 16 integrated system. 17 Our message to the Secretary is simply this: If it 18 isn't broke, don't fix it. 19 Most of the rate structure initiatives mentioned by 20 Secretary Chu in his memo, such as energy efficiency and 21 demand response programs, integration of variable resources, 22 et cetera, have already been in place at Sioux Valley Energy. 23 In fact, a few years ago Sioux Valley Energy 24 initiated something we call Project E-Squared or Energy 25 Efficiency. It began with the construction of a 32 1 super-efficient demonstration home that we built very near 2 Sioux Falls in a community called Brandon just east of here. 3 We held numerous seminars during and after the construction 4 for the public, for contractors, Realtors, and frankly 5 basically anyone we could think of that would benefit from 6 learning more about energy efficient building practices. The 7 Project E-Squared home received a Home Energy Rating of 54, 8 which in essence means that it will use about half of the 9 energy of a traditionally built home. 10 In addition to the home construction, we initiated a 11 new energy efficiency awareness program which included rebates 12 and incentives for customers. We budget nearly $100,000 each 13 year to promote and incentivize efficient use of energy. 14 We have already implemented and have begun using 15 programs that Secretary Chu mentions in his memo. Again, if 16 it's not broke, in fact, it's working very well, so please 17 don't try to fix it. 18 The federal power program is based on the principle 19 that the beneficiary pays for programs from which they 20 benefit. If PMAs change their pricing structure as directed 21 by Secretary Chu, our members will be negatively impacted 22 through higher rates without realizing increased benefits. 23 On behalf of Sioux Valley's 22,000 member consumers, 24 we implore the Department of Energy to very carefully 25 reconsider the Administration's directives. Thank you very 33 1 much. 2 MS. AZAR: Thank you. John McClure? John McClure. 3 (No response.) 4 MS. AZAR: Mike McDowell? 5 MR. RONALD MOULTON: Mike had to leave, but he left a 6 statement for the record. 7 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Jim Moore? 8 MR. JIM MOORE: Thank you. A lot of what I am going 9 to say has been reiterated already inside here. My last name 10 is M-O-O-R-E. I represent a cooperative in northeast South 11 Dakota of approximately 6,000 meters, sell about 291 million 12 kilowatts a year, of which about 30 percent of that is WAPA 13 power. 14 Northern Electric has taken many steps to promote 15 energy efficiency among our members. CFLs have been handed 16 out at our annual meeting three years ago to jump start our 17 members into lighting efficiency. 18 We have been a smart metered coop since 1987 with the 19 investment in a one-way communication meter called Turtle. In 20 2010 we started upgrading our smart grid by switching to the 21 Two-Way Automatic Communications System, TWACS, metering 22 system. Eventually when fully deployed, the members will be 23 able to go online, look at their usage, and be able to limit 24 their own kilowatt hours via the Internet by turning up or 25 down thermostats, water heaters, turn on their stoves, control 34 1 the defrost units in their refrigerators. 2 We offer energy audits to our members. We also do 3 energy audits for our large industrial customers and help them 4 find inefficiencies in their manufacturing processes, 5 lighting, compressor loads, and air exchangers. 6 We participate in loan and rebate programs. Through 7 our power supplier, East River Electric, located in Madison, 8 South Dakota, we have participated in a load control program 9 since 1984. We currently have 2,915 water heaters 10 representing 12,435 kilowatts under load control. And we have 11 also paid out $219,000 in rebates above other rebates to our 12 members who have participated in the program between 2003 and 13 June of 2012. 14 We have 1,785 heat pumps, high efficient electric 15 heating and air conditioning units representing 6,050 KW, 184 16 irrigation sites representing 9,288 KW and 816 crop drying 17 sites with 9,341 KW are participating in this program. We 18 also have 2,200 KW in the generator load that is called upon 19 when needed. 20 From 2003 to 2012 we have also provided an additional 21 $1,251,000 in incentives in loans for our consumers who 22 participate in these energy efficiency programs to help them 23 to improve their own efficiency and lower their bills. We 24 believe in providing a strong commitment to our community and 25 investing in it so it will continue to prosper. 35 1 The DOE's one-size-fits-all plan is far too broad and 2 prohibitively expensive. All users of the federal 3 transmission system should pay based on the benefit they 4 receive. 5 I believe by implementing the concepts that DOE 6 Secretary Chu sent out would be very harmful to my members. 7 The unfair competition by increasing their rates to help 8 others could cause them to lose their livelihood. 9 Thank you very much. 10 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Loren Noess. 11 MR. LOREN NOESS: I am having Jake Wipf speak on my 12 behalf. 13 MS. AZAR: Thank you. 14 MR. JAKE WIPF: I hurt my foot yesterday so I'm going 15 to hike up here. I'm Jake Wipf from the Oak Lane Colony, 16 J-A-K-E, W-I-P-F, located south of Alexandria. Our colony is 17 a farming operation and consists of wheat, corn, and beans. 18 We have a big dairy farm, turkeys, and swine. We run 1,200 19 sows. 20 We have also incorporated renewable energy into our 21 operation with the installation in 2005 of two small wind 22 turbines, one 65 KW and one 95 KW. We sell the entire output 23 of our wind turbines to the cooperatives that deliver our 24 power generators to the federal transmission system. 25 I appear before you tonight to ask you to consider 36 1 all the input you have received as you have traveled around 2 the country talking to users of the federal power system like 3 me and that you remember the guy at the end of the line. 4 That's our great concern, the guy at the end of the line, 5 about our rates going up. 6 We have made significant investments in our farming 7 operation and depend on the electricity provided by our 8 electrical coop every day. One of the biggest benefits our 9 power supplier brings to us is the reliability of the power 10 supply. We have very, very few power outages and have a great 11 deal of confidence of our power supplier, Central Electric. 12 East River Electric and Basin Electric are working with the 13 Western Area Power Administration on the ongoing basis to make 14 sure we have a dependable power supply system in place. 15 We also depend on this same system to deliver the 16 power generated from our wind turbines back to the power grid. 17 We pay to use the system to do that and again, this has been a 18 very reliable system. 19 We have heard that some who would like to develop 20 renewable energy in South Dakota, mainly wind energy, and 21 would like to use the federal transmission system at a reduced 22 or no cost to transmit the power they generate. We would view 23 that as the same as someone saying that they want to come and 24 drive through our state and not pay the gas taxes. That's not 25 going to work. If you use the road, you have to pay for it. 37 1 And if you use the transmission system, like Oak Lane, you 2 should pay for it. 3 We are not asking for any special deals. What we are 4 asking for is that you don't unnecessarily drive up the cost 5 of the federal power system that we depend on and pay for in 6 our power rate. I guess what I am saying is if it isn't 7 broke, why would anybody want to fix it? 8 Thank you very much for allowing me to speak tonight. 9 And please, as you consider what has been said here and at 10 your other meetings, don't forget the guy at the end of the 11 line. Thank you. 12 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Bob Sahr? 13 MR. ROBERT SAHR: Thank you very much. My name is 14 Bob Sahr, it's spelled S-A-H-R, and I appreciate the 15 opportunity to be here tonight. 16 I am the General Counsel for East River Electric 17 Power Cooperative based in Madison, South Dakota. And East 18 River Electric is a wholesale power supplier for 24 rural 19 electric cooperatives and one municipal system in South Dakota 20 and Minnesota. 21 It's good to see a former colleague here at the table 22 and I appreciate your willingness to come out and hold these 23 meetings. And hopefully it sounds like across the region you 24 have received some good input, good feedback, and hopefully 25 that results in a better product. And I know that's a goal 38 1 that you share so I appreciate your efforts. 2 You know, I think as you have heard tonight and you 3 will continue to hear, the folks in this room have an amazing 4 story to tell. And with Western's help, we have gone out 5 across some of the most rural parts of America and built out a 6 robust and reliable electric transmission system and done so 7 at a very competitive, affordable price for the region's 8 consumers. 9 And I just want to say I think the folks who work 10 with Western on a regular basis would echo this: You simply 11 could not find a better partner. Their staff is professional, 12 they are capable, and they keep in mind that they are working 13 for the people and the consumers of this region so they are 14 absolutely top-notch folks in that regard. 15 And I think if you look at it, the collaboration that 16 I am talking about between the utilities and Western have 17 accomplished a lot of the goals that are outlined in Secretary 18 Chu's memo. I mean we talked about promoting renewables, 19 talked about promoting energy efficiency, smart grid 20 application. Those are the sorts of things that Western has 21 done, its partners have done, and we continue to do. 22 And of course we always want to look at ourselves in 23 the mirror and see if there is room for improvement. But I do 24 want to emphasize that that is what's going on out here. And 25 if you look at those very goals, I think the proof's in the 39 1 pudding: Close to 800 megawatts of wind on a system that a 2 little over ten years ago had very little or none on that 3 system. 4 You look at the smart grid applications. Right in 5 East River's footprint with our members we have 96 percent 6 deployment of AMI. We have got a load management system that 7 can be used and operated to benefit our consumers to improve 8 efficiencies, to reduce the needs for new transmission and 9 generation of resources. So we have done this, we continue to 10 do this and we continue to look at it. 11 You look at incentives for consumers. The folks in 12 this room are out there promoting those. They have got 13 programs in place to encourage smart use, to encourage Energy 14 Star appliances, to look at replacing lighting and making good 15 consumer choices. And it's all done with that common goal of 16 keeping costs low. Because in rural America we simply cannot 17 go out there and be inefficient. We have to be 18 cost-effective, we have to be smart, and we have to use 19 technology to do that. 20 I was talking to a staffer, who will remain unnamed, 21 at the end of the day and that staffer was commenting on the 22 passionate nature of the utilities and the consumer groups in 23 this part of the country. And I think we are passionate for a 24 number of reasons. One is we have invested in our systems and 25 we know that it's carrying out an important mission. We want 40 1 to continue to do so. In rural America we need that type of 2 investment. And to do so with a partner like Western enables 3 so many other things. 4 And Tom Heller I think had an important point that he 5 made in his comments a few minutes ago. I mean without the 6 economic growth that's made possible by having someone like 7 Western there providing low cost, reliable power, we would not 8 likely have had the same need for new renewables. These 9 things go hand-in-hand. The system is low cost, the system is 10 open, promotes more variable energy resources, allows us to do 11 that, and it all goes hand-in-hand and is inter-related. 12 So you know, as we heard from a number of the 13 presenters already here tonight, we would echo those key 14 thoughts. Do no harm. Allow us to continue to work with 15 Western as we have been for the benefit of the region's 16 consumers. Have the beneficiaries pay their fair share. And 17 our group, we have a diverse group of utilities. We have wind 18 developers, we have tribes, and they are all in agreement on 19 that important issue: That people should pay their fair 20 share. 21 And lastly, and this is a very important issue, we 22 need you to adequately fund Western. We need the core 23 missions funded, and they have been adequately funded. We 24 need the core missions funded. And any new initiatives that 25 are going to be coming forth, we desperately need those to be 41 1 funded. And right now we are making it work. Western is 2 doing a terrific job. But if we are going to be asked to do 3 more, let's look at ourselves in the mirror and make sure we 4 are adequately funding the core missions along with any new 5 missions. 6 With that, I would say thank you very much and I 7 appreciate you making the trip out to South Dakota twice. 8 Thank you. 9 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Kent Pauling. 10 (No response.) 11 MS. AZAR: Jeff Peters? 12 MR. JEFF PETERS: Pass. 13 MS. AZAR: Rod Rinne. 14 MR. ROD RINNE: We will pass. We will be submitting 15 written comments. 16 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Brad Roos. 17 MR. BRAD ROOS: I'm Brad Roos from Marshall, 18 Minnesota, where I manage the municipal utility there. In 19 Marshall, Minnesota, retail electric service is provided by 20 the Marshall Municipal Utilities. To do this successfully, it 21 purchases electric power and energy at wholesale from entities 22 including the Western Area Power Administration. Hydropower 23 from Western is 21 percent of our power supply mix. 24 The Marshall Municipal Utilities believes Western is 25 doing an excellent job of delivering wholesale electric 42 1 service consistent with its historic, statutorily defined 2 mission. An honest read of Western's track record can draw no 3 other conclusion. 4 The March 16 memorandum from the Department of Energy 5 Secretary Chu has generated a lot of concern among consumer 6 owned electric utilities who purchase power supply and 7 transmission service from Western. We believe that the ideas 8 expressed by the Secretary deals with subject matter our 9 utility is already actively engaged in: Incenting energy 10 efficiency and renewable resource and its integration are 11 things we have been involved with successfully for many years. 12 Our retail utility strives to deliver these along 13 with other smart grid technology and ideas, at a pace and at a 14 time when they will deliver value to the customer/owner of our 15 utility. If we succeed in our deployment of the new 16 technologies and ideas, our customer/owners will be able to 17 embrace the new technology and ideas because it will make 18 their retail electric service more reliable and economic. 19 We fear that the DOE initiatives articulated in the 20 Secretary's memo may dilute that local decision-making 21 process, substituting centralized direction from Washington, 22 DC, with a one-size-fits-all perspective. That would surely 23 not work as well. Decisions that are made closest to the 24 customer are the best decisions. 25 As a Minnesota electric utility, we have participated 43 1 in energy policy development most recently in 2006, 2007, when 2 the State of Minnesota adopted the Next Generation Energy Act 3 and the Renewable Energy Standard. These laws were adopted 4 following a deliberative process by elected representatives. 5 This is the way energy policy should be developed in America. 6 This current effort by the DOE appears to be an attempt to 7 forgo energy policy development by elected representatives in 8 the Congress, and replace it with administrative directive. 9 Creating energy policy in this manner will likely not gain 10 broad-based support from those paying the costs of the 11 policies on their monthly electric bill. 12 This DOE initiative is needless because the region's 13 electric utilities are delivering the new ideas and 14 technologies addressed in the Secretary's memo, and they are 15 doing so at the speed of value to the customer paying the 16 bill. Thank you. 17 MS. AZAR: Thank you. James Ryken. 18 MR. JAMES RYKEN: Good evening. My name is James 19 Ryken, R-Y-K-E-N. I run a family farm with my brother near 20 Gayville, South Dakota, which is ten miles downstream from the 21 Gavins Point Dam on the Missouri River. In the flood of 1952 22 the farm I live on was flooded, causing much damage. The home 23 that my wife's parents lived in was swept away in the flood 24 waters. So I do know the value and the benefits of the dam 25 system. 44 1 As a farmer we have little control over the income 2 side of our equation. We are totally at the mercy of Mother 3 Nature. We have witnessed that especially the last few years 4 with the extreme wet years we have had and this year a 5 drought. We don't always know what we will raise. We work 6 very hard to control the expense side. We receive some of our 7 electricity from the hydro system. We do not need unnecessary 8 expenses added on to our power bill to run an experiment to 9 please some social agenda in Washington, DC. The system has 10 worked for 60 years and it seems the only way to make this 11 work in my opinion is cost shifting to those that are 12 receiving the power currently. That will only cause my 13 electricity to rise with no avenue for me to pass this expense 14 on. My cooperative, Clay Union Electric, is already providing 15 much of the so-called 21st Century technology DOE is now 16 saying should be done by WAPA. My cooperative has offered 17 demand side management since the 1980s. They have installed 18 new smart meters, and they offer many conservation and energy 19 efficiency programs. We don't need to invent new programs to 20 solve problems which don't exist. 21 From a small farmer's point of view, it simply boils 22 down to the fact that I can't afford it. And this is a 23 somewhat recurring theme now, but I think the old saying if it 24 ain't broke, don't fix it certainly applies to this proposal. 25 Thank you. 45 1 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Harold Schiebout or Schiebout. 2 MR. HAROLD SCHIEBOUT: My name is Harold Schiebout 3 spelled S-C-H-I-E-B-O-U-T. Thank you for the opportunity to 4 comment. I serve as Director of Government Relations in Sioux 5 Center, Iowa, Municipal Utilities, also serving as Chairman of 6 the Board of Missouri River Energy Services, a joint action 7 agency which Mr. Heller spoke about a bit ago. 8 The focus of my comments this evening is to highlight 9 the decades of demand side management, energy efficiency, and 10 renewable energy that has been going on in our community, but 11 also involving Missouri River Energy Services as well. I 12 would like to highlight just a few items that we have been 13 doing beginning in the Seventies and continuing to the present 14 time. 15 We have a Load Management project along with the 16 SCATA System controlling water heaters and air conditioners 17 and also voltage, but we have a 96 percent market penetration 18 rate. Customer support, that takes effort and it's worked for 19 us, our residential, commercial, and industrial energy audits 20 through the years. We promote and enforce new building 21 envelope insulating standards. And we have had tree planting 22 programs. Two community infrared thermogram flyover programs. 23 And in the interest of time, I'm not going to go on into 24 others, but this is examples of it, there is more in my 25 written comments, except to say there is a great deal of time, 46 1 effort, and expense that has been invested in turning out 2 these initiatives in our community. 3 I would say we have also received a great deal of 4 help from the Western Area Power Administration, which gives 5 me the opportunity to again thank WAPA for choosing the City 6 of Sioux Center Municipal Utilities to receive the 7 Administrator's Award. And I would like to read the 8 inscription on that, which is: "In special recognition of 9 exceptional conservation and renewable energy contributions. 10 The date, 1987." So this has been going on for a long time. 11 And WAPA has been recognizing that and helping that, these 12 programs. 13 More recently we have enhanced our demand side 14 management energy efficiency programs under the umbrella of 15 Missouri River Energy Services' Bright Energy Solutions 16 Program. Under this program customers are incentivized for a 17 wide range of demand side management and energy efficiency 18 improvements applicable to all sectors of our community. In 19 addition, Missouri River Energy Services has been aggressive 20 in expanding its energy supply portfolio with renewables. 21 Currently Missouri River Energy Services has 85 megawatts of 22 wind power and we expect that will produce approximately nine 23 percent of our energy requirements for 2012. Missouri River 24 Energy Services is also currently in the process of 25 constructing a hydroelectric project on the Corps of Engineers 47 1 dam on the Des Moines River near Pella, Iowa. It's a 55 2 megawatt project and it's at a cost of about $224 million. 3 And it's a significant project for us, but we do believe in 4 doing renewable energy projects and putting our money on the 5 line. And so we just want to highlight what's going on in our 6 community and in Missouri River Energy Services. 7 In summary, both Sioux Center and Missouri River 8 Energy Services are examples of significant initiatives that 9 are going on in demand side management and energy efficiency 10 and renewable energy programs with the support of WAPA. With 11 all due respect, I fail to see that under the DOE's top down 12 approach that we could do any better in these areas than we 13 are today. And it has the appearance of a solution looking 14 for a problem the way it looks to me. So thank you for the 15 opportunity. Appreciate it. 16 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Gary Sharp? 17 MR. GARY SHARP: Gary Sharp, S-H-A-R-P. Thank you 18 for allowing me to speak with you tonight. I am Gary Sharp. 19 I'm from northeastern South Dakota. My wife Donna and I and 20 our two sons live and farm five miles east of Aberdeen, South 21 Dakota. We have a fifth generation family operation where we 22 have a dairy, background feeder cattle, raise replacement 23 heifers, and farm. I am also Chairman of the Board of 24 Northern Electric Cooperative east of Aberdeen, South Dakota 25 in Bath. 48 1 I am speaking to you today as a modern dairy farmer 2 who consistently watches our bottom line in respect to all 3 input costs. Our farm was the second farm in Brown County to 4 originally turn the lights on. And at that time electricity 5 became important to us. Electricity is very necessary to our 6 operation to exist and the cost of that power is of utmost 7 importance. 8 We in South Dakota, North Dakota have been blessed 9 with the Bureau of Reclamations development of the Missouri 10 River. Starting with President Franklin Roosevelt's 11 administration, the Pick-Sloan Flood Control Act in 1944 was 12 signed into law. I'm sure you know that this Act established 13 the main step dams as we know them today. Inclusive within 14 this Act provided for hydropower, recreation, irrigation, 15 navigation, flood control, and fish and wildlife. 16 My grandfather, my father, and myself have all 17 testified at Congressional hearings and also on the Hill in 18 support of these programs. In fact, my father is still alive 19 at 84 years old and he was part of the Oahe delegation, 20 dedication of the Oahe Dam with President John F. Kennedy. 21 We have a contract that remains in effect to this day 22 that guarantees us with cost-efficient electric power as well 23 as other attributes. Although irrigation has slipped away 24 from us, we certainly don't wish to see our cost-efficient 25 power do the same. We want to remain viable for our future 49 1 generations. My family relies on power at an affordable price 2 from these main step dams, and any actions to jeopardize that 3 would be a tragedy for us and our entire area. We don't mind 4 paying for our power, but we don't feel it's equitable to pay 5 for someone else's. The cooperative way encompasses the 6 beneficiary pay theory. Thank you very much. 7 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Jon Soderholm. 8 MR. JON SODERHOLM: Jon Soderholm, spelled J-O-N, 9 S-O-D-E-R-H-O-L-M. Madam Chairman, thank you for allowing me 10 to come today. I am a user and not part of the power 11 generation system. I'm the CEO and President of the South 12 Dakota Avera Heart Hospital. We have been in operation for 12 13 years. We are a customer of Southeastern Electric and I'm a 14 personal customer of Sioux Valley Electric. And I, too, back 15 in Minnesota was one of the first, a small boy when our power 16 came on. 17 When I got this job to build a hospital 12 years ago, 18 one of the first people I called was Brad Schardin and said, 19 "Brad, I need to have power in the middle of this soybean 20 field." And I said, "Brad, I've got some concerns." I came 21 to REA real early in my life and it wasn't very dependable at 22 that point in time. And I said, "Brad, I need dependable 23 power, I need clean power, and I need it economically." And 24 Brad said he could do all those things, and he has. He has 25 kept our power on because if my power goes off and you're on 50 1 the operating table or if you have a respirator running, it's 2 a world of hurt. And he has done a great job of providing 3 clean, dependable power. 4 I argue with him all the time about economical power 5 because the last three years my power rates have gone up seven 6 and eight and nine percent. That's my only cost that has gone 7 up that high. I have been able to hold my other costs down, 8 but my power costs have gone up. 9 So when I hear about the possibility of people coming 10 on the grid that I own a part of and being able to come on 11 that grid and pay less than the cost of coming on -- and you 12 can't kid me about costs, I am a hospital administrator, I 13 understand costs and the federal government and who gets to 14 decide what is cost. But if my costs go up, I got a problem. 15 Because my biggest customer is the federal government. 16 Two-thirds of my customers are Medicare customers. And the 17 government says to me, "Here, Jon, I want to pay you less 18 money than I paid you last year for more care, better care," 19 and if my costs continue to go up but the federal government 20 says, "I want to pay you less money," and on the other hand 21 the federal government says, "I want your costs to go up," 22 it's a real problem. I can't handle both. 23 So if in fact there is a process -- and you said 24 there is not -- that I would have to tell you that I have been 25 around the block a couple of times with the federal 51 1 government, and cost is a problem. 2 And if I have a minute, I'll talk about another 3 experience I have had. I have been in this business over 40 4 years. And back in the late Seventies, early Eighties, I was 5 responsible for a rather large hospital in this community who 6 went total energy. And we bought an energy system and for 7 three years we ran that system with absolutely no line to 8 anybody else. We never got -- and we were doing fine with it. 9 But at that point in time politically in this country it was 10 said we couldn't buy any more natural gas and they cut us off. 11 And so we had an investment, large investment for a small 12 hospital, that we said, "She is going down the tube, guys, 13 because we can't run our engines." 14 So I understand the political process that you get 15 put into, it's a political reality. But the political process 16 doesn't always make the correct decisions for the people who 17 are paying the bills. So thank you very much. 18 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Beth Soholt? 19 (No response.) 20 MS. AZAR: Adam Sokolski? 21 (No response.) 22 MR. JOSH GACKLE: I'm here in place of Beth. 23 MS. AZAR: Go ahead. 24 MR. JOSH GACKLE: Thank you. I'm not Beth Soholt, 25 but I do work for Beth and I'm here on behalf of Wind On The 52 1 Wires. My name is Josh Gackle, last name G-A-C-K-L-E. 2 Wind On The Wires is -- we are a regional power of 3 the American Wind Energy Association. We operate throughout 4 the upper Midwest from the Dakotas, starting on the western 5 side through Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Missouri, and 6 Indiana. Our interest here tonight, and I was also at the 7 Rapid City meeting, we of course are advocates for more wind 8 and more transmission. We advocate for more wind and 9 transmission at legislative and regulatory arenas throughout 10 the states we work in, so state legislatures, state public 11 utilities commissions and the like. We also are heavily 12 involved in processes at the Midwest ISO and other areas where 13 transmission planning is taking place. 14 And I want to say thank you to DOE and to WAPA for 15 coordinating these meetings. I appreciate the discussion 16 that's taken place and hearing -- very important to Wind On 17 The Wires and to our members is to hear what is actually going 18 on with the customers that we want to sell our electricity to 19 and to hear the differences that exist between an area like 20 Midwest ISO or SBP and the WAPA area and the different 21 challenges that exist in this part of the country. It's been 22 very beneficial for us. 23 There are just a couple things, and to keep my 24 comments brief, the beneficiary who pays concept is more than 25 just a concept, it's a reality. And we appreciate that as 53 1 well and we think that that is a very good motto to use and we 2 think it should continue. I mentioned this today earlier in 3 one of the breakout sessions. I think it's important when 4 looking at the beneficiary pays concept to consider the other 5 benefits that exists when a transmission expansion plan is 6 incorporated. When a new high voltage transmission line is 7 built, it's not just the wind farm and the customer, we are 8 aware that power, whoever that power is going to is who is 9 going to benefit from that line, there are a whole host of 10 other benefits regarding congestion, reliability, and a more 11 flexible grid that improve the transmission system for a 12 broad -- for the region in general. 13 And we think that while WAPA and Midwest ISO or SBP 14 are very different, especially Upper Great Plains Western 15 Area, there are many lessons that can be learned by what has 16 just occurred at the Midwest ISO and SBP in approving cost 17 allocation for large transmission lines. 18 We think this part of the country with the tremendous 19 wind resource that exists here in South Dakota and North 20 Dakota and the Upper Great Plains of WAPA, the economic and 21 jobs benefit that can occur here in this part of the country 22 with an expanded wind energy and more turbines and a broader 23 transmission network to get that power out will be a huge 24 benefit to landowners, farmers, and customers and consumers 25 throughout the footprint. 54 1 I want to thank you again for the opportunity to 2 present here and we look forward to continuing the discussion. 3 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Isabel Trobaugh. Isabel 4 Trobaugh? 5 (No response.) 6 MS. AZAR: Steve Ver Mulm. 7 MR. STEVE VER MULM: No comment. 8 MS. AZAR: I'm sorry? 9 MR. STEVE VER MULM: I'm not going to comment. 10 MS. AZAR: Not? Okay. Raymond Wahle. 11 MR. RAYMOND WAHLE: No comment. 12 MS. AZAR: No comment. Dennis Walstra. 13 MR. DENNIS WALSTRA: Thank you. Dennis Walstra, 14 W-A-L-S-T-R-A. I'm Mayor of Sioux Center, Iowa, a community 15 in northwest Iowa of about 7,000 people. 16 And as an elected policymaker, along with my council, 17 we provide vision for both our city and our utility. And as 18 such, we don't get involved in the nuts and bolts of power 19 distribution and generation so I'm not going to speak to 20 anything that I don't know about. What I do know is that our 21 electric utility has been a tremendous asset to our community 22 since 1949. We have had a good relationship with WAPA for 57 23 years and with Missouri River Energy Services for almost 50. 24 And I'm not going to speak to the advantages of that because 25 Tom Heller has spoken to that as well as Harold Schiebout with 55 1 the programs that we have been able to work with these two 2 organizations on with respect to energy conservation and 3 efficiency. 4 What I do know is that our electric utility has made 5 significant contributions to our community. And they have 6 done so through infrastructure, they have done so through 7 contributions to our recreation center, to our golf course, to 8 a new hospital that we just broke ground for last Thursday for 9 an eight and a half million dollars project, and they continue 10 to provide contributions to our general fund that along with 11 our growth helps us to keep our property taxes low. 12 We are a prosperous community, we are a growing 13 community. Since 1900 every decade has experienced double 14 digit growth except one, and in the last three decades we have 15 experienced 17 percent growth, which I think is pretty 16 phenomenal when a lot of the communities in rural areas are 17 losing population. 18 We have since 1980 made a conscious decision to 19 expand our economic base from primarily ag to industrial, and 20 we did so through an Industrial Development Committee. And in 21 doing so, and inviting businesses to look at our community, 22 there are a number of things they look for. They want to know 23 if there is good healthcare available. They want to know if 24 there is good educational facilities available for their kids. 25 They want to know if there is recreational facilities 56 1 available, a library. But before they ask all those 2 questions, they want to know do you have affordable utility 3 rates? That's number one. And we have been fortunate enough 4 to provide that service and those low cost electricity rates 5 to our consumers. And we would certainly like to continue to 6 do so, which would continue to help contribute to our growth. 7 Our concern of course is that the recommendations by 8 Secretary Chu are going to cost. And I know you indicated 9 that we are going to remain on a cost base in our utility 10 rates from WAPA. But those costs are going to have to be 11 added at some point and passed on as well and we are afraid we 12 may have to do that same thing to our customers. 13 So I appreciate the opportunity to address you this 14 evening and look forward to further conversations. Thank you. 15 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Steve Wegman? 16 MR. STEVE WEGMAN: Thank you. My name is Steve 17 Wegman, W-E-G-M-A-N. I am a resident in Pierre, South Dakota, 18 retail customer. 19 Tonight I would like to talk a little bit about some 20 of the history of Western. Western had a program called 21 Conservation Renewable Energy from 1978 to about sometime in 22 1995. This program was funded right about $6 million, and 23 without any public comment it just went away. What I would 24 like to suggest to Western is to bring that program back. Why 25 is it important? That program allowed many of these utilities 57 1 back in the Seventies and Eighties to do load management. It 2 allowed us to bring in experts from Ontario Hydro, Hydro 3 Quebec, Compact Fluorescent Lights. We did programs in 1992. 4 We did a lot of energy efficiency workshopping. Blower door 5 forced air and pressure testing, infrared cameras. So many of 6 these services were available, but then without any public 7 comment just went away. Thank you. 8 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Jake Wipf. Jake? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He was here. 10 MS. AZAR: Okay, he is gone. Terry Wolf? Terry 11 Wolf? 12 (No response.) 13 MS. AZAR: No? Dan Zulkosky? 14 MR. DAN ZULKOSKY: My name is Dan Zulkosky, 15 Z-U-L-K-O-S-K-Y. Easiest one to spell tonight. I am 16 Construction Administrator for the Lewis & Clark Regional 17 Water System. We are a nonprofit rural water project that was 18 authorized by Congress in the year 2000. It is a unique 19 regional approach to address common problems of water quality 20 and quantity in a more effective and cost efficient manner. 21 The project will provide a desperately needed source of 22 quality, reliable drinking water to an estimated 300,000 23 people in southeast South Dakota, northwest Iowa, and 24 southwest Minnesota. 25 Having had the opportunity to read Secretary Chu's 58 1 memo of March 16, Lewis & Clark Regional Water System has 2 become very concerned that the path the Department of Energy 3 is taking with regard to the Power Marketing Administrations, 4 and particularly the Western Area Power Administration, may 5 lead to significant increases, rate increases to Lewis & Clark 6 with no benefit. 7 Our water project is tied to WAPA in two ways. 8 During the winter months we receive the electric power supply 9 to operate our water treatment facility and pump stations from 10 two South Dakota Rural Electric Cooperatives. The electricity 11 supplied to our project from the cooperatives could come at a 12 higher price if the Department of Energy directs WAPA to begin 13 system replacement that may be based only on the age of poles 14 and transformers and not on the actual performance of the 15 equipment. Based on our experience thus far, the reliability 16 we have seen from our power suppliers has been outstanding. 17 If these replacements are undertaken just because of the age 18 of the system, this would have an upward effect on rates at a 19 time our region is in the midst of recovering from the 20 economic downturn in 2008 and is now confronted with 21 unprecedented drought conditions. To make improvements just 22 to make improvements does not always make good business sense. 23 The second way the Department of Energy activities 24 would have an impact on our project is more direct. As part 25 of an agreement reached with the preference community, 59 1 including the rural water electrics and municipal electrics 2 which is represented at tonight's meeting, Lewis & Clark 3 receives a direct federal power allocation for the summer 4 months. This allocation is sold to Lewis & Clark at the 5 preference rate for the summer months that coincides with the 6 irrigation season. I point out that this coincides with the 7 irrigation season because this power was originally allocated 8 to federal irrigation projects that were promised for our 9 region of our country in return for giving up large quantities 10 of private land for the construction of the dams on the 11 Missouri River, which never were built. Our cost for the 12 federal allocation includes the cost of the federal 13 transmission system, the Integrated System or IS as it is 14 known in the region. As a direct recipient of hydropower, I 15 believe I can't stress enough the need to preserve the pricing 16 structure on a cost-based premise, which is one of the main 17 foundations of the federal system to date. 18 It is our request that the Department of Energy not 19 implement any plans that would add unneeded cost to the system 20 that is operating today in a very safe and reliable cost-based 21 manner and that if others are allowed to use, upgrades would 22 be their responsibility and not that of the current 23 recipients. 24 Thank you for allowing me to speak today on behalf of 25 Lewis & Clark Regional Water System and the 300,000 citizens 60 1 of this region who are depending on us to provide clean, safe 2 drinking water at affordable cost-based rates. 3 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Bill Schwandt? 4 MR. BILL SCHWANDT: Hello. My name is Bill Schwandt. 5 Bill, and then S-C-H-W-A-N-D-T. I am Bill Schwandt, I am the 6 General Manager at Moorhead Public Service. 7 Moorhead Public Service owns and operates the 8 electric utility for the 17,000 residents and businesses in 9 the community of Moorhead, Minnesota. WAPA supplies Moorhead 10 Public Service with 51 percent of our base power supply, while 11 a supplemental portion comes from Missouri River Energy 12 Services, a joint action agency located in Sioux Falls, South 13 Dakota. In addition to that we have a small portion that 14 comes from our Capture The Wind Renewable Energy Program. 15 And as an aside, may the record reflect that I have 16 the Department of Energy's Award from 2012, June of 2012, in 17 front of me. And this was a joint -- this is called the 18 Public Power Wind Award and it was presented by the U.S. 19 Department of Energy Wind Powering America and American Public 20 Power Association. When we received this award, I got a call 21 from the Department of Energy staff and they said, "Why did it 22 take so long for them to give you this award?" Because we 23 have had this program since 1999. I guess the purpose of 24 bringing this today was to show that the Department of Energy 25 may not be aware of all the things that we are doing in the 61 1 areas of energy efficiency, renewable energy, and demand side 2 management. 3 WAPA's firm power supply is a very important resource 4 for Moorhead. It provides a reliable, economical, and 5 environmentally friendly source of electricity. So on March 6 16, 2012, when the Secretary Chu memo was issued directing 7 major changes to the federal Power Marketing Administrations, 8 including WAPA, we were concerned about that. The consumer 9 owned utilities that were directly impacted were not consulted 10 prior to the issuance of this document. And we appreciate it 11 now that you are asking for comments and thank you for 12 allowing us to give those. 13 In the memorandum it calls for the PMAs to take a 14 leadership role in transforming the electric utilities sector 15 "within their existing statutory authority" and appears to 16 focus on transmission issues. Yet many of the programs go 17 beyond the statutory authorities of WAPA. 18 The Department of Energy expressed its intent to have 19 the PMAs play a leadership role by offering incentives for 20 energy efficiency and making investments in transmission for 21 the purpose of getting more renewables integrated into the 22 market. Moorhead Public Service believes that the leadership 23 role has been fulfilled at the regional level in collaboration 24 with WAPA for energy efficiency, demand side management, and 25 renewable energy. 62 1 Moorhead Public Service has had a demand side 2 management program since 1983. We have worked closely with 3 WAPA when the programs were initiated and we continue to work 4 closely with WAPA as new programs like our Thrifty Watts 5 Program was introduced last year. So we are continually 6 looking at new programs, we are updating new programs, and 7 WAPA has done a nice job of working with us on that. 8 Moorhead Public Service has been integrating and 9 purchasing wind energy since 1999, so over a decade. This 10 well-known program except for, sorry, DOE, has been recognized 11 nationwide. Some kudos again to WAPA because back in 1999 12 when we brought this program online we had to integrate that 13 into the transmission system and I received some very 14 effective regional collaboration and great customer service 15 when WAPA called me up on the phone and said, "We need to work 16 out how we are going to integrate this into the system because 17 it's a new program and something that we need to figure out." 18 So back in 1999 they did that and we worked that out. I heard 19 one of the comments were how much renewable energy another 20 utility here had, and we are proud of the fact that we have 21 over 60 percent renewable energy when you count Western. So 22 we have 51 percent Western Area Power, about 12 percent 23 Missouri River Energy Services, and one percent from our own 24 program. 25 So we are concerned as well about the cost of these 63 1 programs. It was mentioned before that the federal program is 2 based on the principle that the beneficiary pays for the 3 programs to which they benefit. The memorandum does not state 4 on how these program costs are going to be recovered and by 5 whom. 6 To conclude, we are concerned that the DOE's policy 7 goals may move WAPA in a direction that is outside the 8 statutory mission of the agency or that the WAPA customers may 9 face unwarranted rate increases. Please, we would ask you to 10 please study new programs carefully, and consult with consumer 11 owners of WAPA that have a direct connection with the retail 12 customers and have been delivering reliable service as well as 13 implementing energy efficiency, demand side management, and 14 renewable energy programs for years. Thank you. 15 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Sue Kelly? 16 MS. SUE KELLY: Thank you so much for letting me 17 speak, Lauren. I really appreciate it. My name is Sue Kelly, 18 K-E-L-L-Y. I am the General Counsel of the American Public 19 Power Association. I was not originally planning to speak, 20 but the more I thought about it, I thought maybe it would be 21 good to give the benediction of the close, or at the close of 22 the whole series of meetings and the Listening Sessions and 23 it's time for us to kind of recap a little bit. 24 I'm sure that DOE staff and its consultants have 25 learned many things through the process; maybe not things they 64 1 had anticipated, but I know we have all learned a lot. And 2 among these things I would point out that I hope DOE takes 3 away from this process is that local ownership and local 4 control is the guiding principle for WAPA's customers. You 5 have to start at the bottom and work up with them. When you 6 work at the top, start at the top and work down with them, 7 they don't take it well. So it's just, you know, something we 8 have all learned. 9 The PMAs, including WAPA, were developed region by 10 region, statute by statute, project by project, and anything 11 that's done has to respect that. It can't assume that it's 12 all the same for that message. I mean you have heard that 13 message many times and it's not just WAPA. It's the 14 generating agencies that you have to think about, you have to 15 think about the Corps, you have to think about the Bureau of 16 Reclamation. And it's not just power; it's water, it's 17 recreation, it's flood control, it's wildlife. All these 18 things have to be taken into account. The rivers serve many 19 masters. 20 So I'm just going to offer not in the APPA capacity, 21 just in the Sue Kelly personal kind of advice category some 22 thoughts. I'm hoping that DOE will sit down, comb through the 23 record, pick two or three things that they have heard that all 24 sides could potentially agree on because we have heard some 25 things, I've heard some things today, I'm sure you have heard 65 1 some things in earlier meetings, and have WAPA take the lead 2 in working on these things with the preference customer 3 community and the other stakeholders in an incremental, bottom 4 up, region by region process. 5 The biggest mistake the DOE could make now would be 6 to issue proposed recommendations following this meeting that 7 are not concrete, that use buzz words like 21st Century grid, 8 and flexible and resilient and global competitives because 9 nobody knows what those terms mean. And the longer those 10 terms go on being used, the more paranoid everybody gets. I 11 mean that's just -- I'm just trying to provide a dose of 12 reality here. 13 As you can tell through these meetings, the customers 14 have already assumed the worst. And the way we need to 15 proceed now is to rebuild the trust and to start kind of 16 working together on an incremental basis to get back to ground 17 zero and to move forward. And I think the best way to do that 18 is for DOE central to step back and let WAPA and its staff -- 19 and you have heard many people here tonight praise WAPA and 20 its staff, and they are worthy of that praise -- address 21 concrete issues that we all face in a cost-effective, 22 incremental and cost-based way. 23 So I'm just hopeful that this is the way we can 24 proceed from here. And thank you very much for letting me 25 speak. 66 1 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Brad Schardin? 2 MR. BRAD SCHARDIN: Good evening. My name is Brad 3 Schardin, S-C-H-A-R-D-I-N. And after the benediction I must 4 be the encore now, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the deal is 5 here. I do need to make my comments on behalf of our members 6 of Southeastern Electric Cooperative, of which I am the 7 Manager. 8 We are heavily dependent through our power supplier, 9 East River, on the Western Area Power Administration. We sell 10 about 600 million kilowatt hours a year and 30 percent of that 11 comes from the Western Area Power Administration. We have 12 15,000 members. You got to hear from two of them tonight: 13 Jon Soderholm, the CEO at the Heart Hospital; and Dan 14 Zulkosky, the Construction Manager for Lewis & Clark Rural 15 Water. They indicated the need for dependable, affordable, 16 and reliable electric power. I can't do it any better than 17 they did. 18 We have other members that are dependent nationwide 19 on their business here like Adams Thermal out of Canton, South 20 Dakota, that competes against businesses in China, Korea, 21 India, and those developing nations that have very, very low 22 cost power and have to compete with them on a competitive 23 basis. 24 We have 15,000 members. Our system is 4,200 miles of 25 distribution line out there. Some of that's 50 to 70 years 67 1 old. Like WAPA has heard tonight, we depend on reliable 2 operations of maintenance programs to keep that system 3 operating in great condition. We are very proud of our 4 accomplishments with East River and with WAPA on energy 5 conservation, smart grid initiatives, and also our long-term 6 planning and organization. 7 The one thing I want to mention at the end here is 8 our demand side management generates about $300,000 a month 9 savings for our members through our large capacity water 10 heaters, which is critical to buying power off-peak and 11 converting that to our members so we can avoid peak purchase 12 power costs. 13 Smart metering, or we prefer advance metering, is 14 doing great things for us and our members. We are 15 implementing that. We have a $111 million system out there 16 and we have put in about $10 million a year to upgrade, 17 repair, and replace that system. We continue to invest in 18 improvements. Our members can't afford us to build all new 19 all at one time. We need to utilize our old system along with 20 our new. 21 We are implementing GIS and demand side management. 22 And I think the thing that's key to me, and as our two members 23 mentioned here tonight, the dependable, reliable, affordable 24 power is critical and electricity is driving technology for us 25 today and it will continue for the next 20, 30, and 50 years 68 1 going into the future. 2 Rates have increased substantially over the last five 3 years. You have heard CEO Soderholm indicate to me that he 4 needs to talk to me every year on that issue. And we need to 5 control those issues and make them as affordable as possible 6 with our growing needs in this region. And we have invested 7 in technology and renewable resources which are part of those 8 costs that we need to continue to watch carefully. I 9 encourage you to help us and help our members to keep our 10 rates affordable. 11 And thank you for the comments here tonight. 12 MS. AZAR: Thank you. All right. That is the end of 13 the folks that actually signed up to speak. Is there anybody 14 else? 15 MR. CHRIS VANDEVENTER: I actually signed up. I 16 thought I was going to go a lot sooner than this. 17 MS. AZAR: I apologize. Your name wasn't highlighted 18 or I would have called you. Please give us your name. 19 MR. CHRIS VANDEVENTER: My name is Chris Vandeventer. 20 I have given you my business card to save you some time. 21 Basin Electric Power Cooperative is a transmission and 22 generation cooperative serving the supplemental power supply 23 needs from Western Area Power Administration. We are 24 submitting written comments so I will try to be brief. We 25 co-own the IS with Western and Heartland. Many of our members 69 1 receive power from the Pick-Sloan Missouri Basin Program. 2 We have been following this ever since this memo 3 first came out in March. And we keep coming back to the 4 question I think everybody wants an answer to: Why are we 5 here? We have heard that over and over tonight. As we have 6 already stated, we believe that this is an initiative in 7 search of a problem. For decades the existing system and 8 Western's customer relationship has worked very, very well. 9 Western works well with its neighboring systems to ensure an 10 efficient and reliable system. 11 The Integrated System's vision of going it together 12 rather than going it alone is at the core of the cooperative 13 philosophy, and thus is the success of Basin Electric. Our 14 members are Western's members. Basin Electric and its members 15 are so interconnected with Western that any changes that come 16 out of this could have a direct impact on our operations and 17 the costs paid by rural consumers throughout our service area. 18 This top-down, one-size-fits-all approach being imposed on 19 Western by the DOE is too broad and fails to credit the 20 current, locally developed planning process to improve the 21 transmission system. 22 We have three key concerns. Any proposal implemented 23 as a result of this must not upset the highly successful 24 historical relationship in this region. Second, any proposal 25 should not duplicate services or impose additional cost 70 1 burdens for rural consumers in this region. Third, any 2 additional users of the system should pay for that system on a 3 basis commensurate with the service level taken. And I think 4 everybody is in agreement with that tonight. 5 If Western and the IS benefits from any new projects 6 directly, the preference customers can and should pay their 7 fair share of the service. But if there is no benefit to 8 Western or its customers, then they should not be obligated to 9 pay those additional costs. 10 Simply put, this memo fails to recognize the 11 significant work by Western as a leader in the areas of 12 reliability, planning and operations. Our written comments 13 include examples of leadership as well as investments in 14 transmission, renewable energy, and energy efficiency in the 15 region. 16 Western's mission was established by Congress to 17 provide cost-based hydropower. And we have heard Congress has 18 put a lot of new impositions on WAPA. But barring any 19 Congressional action to alter that mission, Western's 20 statutory contractual obligation takes precedent. 21 Western and the other PMAs can and should look at 22 ways to improve its system and better coordinate with their 23 customers and neighboring systems. But DOE needs to carefully 24 examine exactly what Western is already doing. 25 This evening it was stated that the question why we 71 1 are here is to answer what Western's role should be. I would 2 rather say that after you take a look at these comments that 3 you should ask yourself whether these are even appropriate 4 goals for Western to be taking. DOE should allow Western's 5 current system and management to continue within its 6 Congressionally established mission of serving its customers 7 first. Thank you 8 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Yes, please, sir. 9 MR. BRUCE PONTOW: I as well signed up, but for some 10 reason -- Bruce Pontow. 11 MS. AZAR: What's your last name? 12 MR. BRUCE PONTOW: Pontow, P-O-N-T-O-W. Good 13 evening, good evening. My name is Bruce Pontow, B-R-U-C-E, 14 P-O-N-T-O-W. I'm General Manager of Nebraska Electric G & T 15 in Columbus, Nebraska. 16 I had some written comments, but prefer for the sake 17 of not being too repetitious I wanted to make a comment 18 specific to Nebraska and a couple of other ones that I think 19 further need a little bit of definition. 20 The first comment has to do with demand side 21 management. Nebraska Electric G & T and its 22 members serve 22 the rural two-thirds of Nebraska, eastern two-thirds of 23 Nebraska. We have right now approximately five to 600 24 megawatts of irrigation pumping under local management and 25 demand control. We move that from on-peak to off-peak. It's 72 1 been a challenge this year given the heat and the lack of 2 rain. But the program has performed and done what it's 3 supposed to do. I don't believe that we need Western to help 4 us with that program or further improve it. 5 A side benefit I think from the demand side 6 management program as load control for irrigation is water 7 conservation. So it goes unnoticed most of the time. 8 A couple of other items is this idea of cost-based 9 rates. I'm not so sure that we don't have a couple of the 10 definitions sitting out there. And I would like to make sure 11 that everyone, including yourself, understands what our 12 concept of cost-based rates are. That is: What's it take 13 Western as far as cost to generate and deliver hydropower, 14 period. We are not here to -- how do I want to say -- have 15 programs and initiatives that are suggested be placed in those 16 revenue requirements, increase our rates, and turn around and 17 still call that cost-based rates. That's not my definition of 18 it and I don't think it's a lot of customers' definition 19 either. So I want to make sure that that's at least 20 understood from my perspective. 21 The other piece would be the idea of the beneficiary 22 pays. If you load it up, it's not going to be -- you load the 23 rates up and it's not going to be beneficiary pays. So I'm 24 thinking we have two different definitions here: Washington 25 has one and we have another. Just saying. 73 1 The other piece is I think it's very important that 2 the comments that are made here and your draft 3 recommendations, you give us time to comment on that, but more 4 importantly, we get to see the final recommendations. I think 5 it does a great disservice for everyone that's taken part in 6 all of the workshops, in all of the Listening Sessions to not 7 know what the result was. And for us to walk away and not get 8 the final and know those final recommendations does that. 9 It's almost a slap in the face to everybody that took the time 10 and the effort to take part. That's all the comments I have. 11 Thank you. 12 MS. AZAR: Thank you. Yes, please, sir. 13 MR. RONALD NEISS: Ronald Neiss, N-E-I-S-S. I just 14 gave my card. Can you hear me? Okay. I guess I will follow 15 suit and I gave you my card. My name is Ronald L. Neiss. I 16 am with the Rosebud Sioux Tribe Utilities Commission. And I 17 will repeat some of what I said this afternoon, some of my 18 comments this afternoon. 19 But it's important to me, my elders have told me, you 20 know, that I introduce myself, that I say that -- also give my 21 Indian name and that I, you know, that I greet you with a good 22 heart and handshake and that's what I do. And my Indian name, 23 I will say it in Lakota so you will ask me later what that 24 means. But it's Spotted Eagle Who Helps Them, which is I 25 think it's a really good name because it's -- and humbly I say 74 1 that because I've been known to try to help people. And also 2 I used to be -- some of you see me today that know me from 3 before, I see familiar faces today, you know, I used to be 4 real, real dark skinned. But I have vitiligo which caused me 5 to lose my pigmentation of my skin, and it's particularly to 6 dark-skinned people and Native Americans included. My son 7 told people, my 12-year-old son, when it really started when I 8 was brown and white, you know, he said that his name is 9 Spotted Eagle. My dad liked that. The wisdom of children, 10 you know, it's just great. So I learned how to deal with that 11 based on the love of my son. 12 But I'm trying to talk slowly but I'm, you know, I'm 13 really happy to be here today, you know. We are a people, 14 Native Americans, we are largely we are -- at one time we were 15 called the vanishing Americans, you know. When I went to 16 Marty Indian School there was a band called Vanishing 17 Americans. My brother, you know, he later on joined -- they 18 had another Native American band called Electric Savages. My 19 brother was lead singer of that at Marty Indian School. And 20 vanishing Americans now we became the -- we are not vanishing 21 anymore, but we are the forgotten Americans, and I think in 22 many instances misunderstood. 23 And it was evidenced today, you know. It was a 24 frustrating day for me, you know, because some of the 25 misunderstanding about Native American issues was spoken 75 1 today. And I said, you know, that I forgive them, they know 2 not what they say, they know not what they do. That's because 3 we are misunderstood. 4 I want to thank Bob, you know, for recognizing that 5 Native Americans being the stakeholders that we are and in all 6 these processes are spoken of today, we are largely a 7 stakeholder. We are trying to survive in impoverished 8 countries. You have third world countries right here in the 9 United States and it shouldn't be that way, you know. 10 I want to thank the Department of Energy. I made 11 friends today. Jay, you know, for recognizing it again, 12 tribes, tribes, tribes, you know, and that is great. I ask 13 that you remember the treaty that I gave to you. And for 14 Secretary Chu to say -- I will take that word back today to 15 the Tribal homeland to my tribe, the Rosebud Sioux, to say, 16 "Let's extend them an invitation." There is a -- I will say 17 one Indian word, it's Wati, W-A-T-I, that means to live with 18 somebody, you don't really understand them unless you live 19 with them. And some of you have come to the Rosebud 20 Reservation. Gary? Where is Gary at? We tired you out. We 21 took you on the tour, you know. And it's good to see you 22 today. I know that it was very tiring. We had our Renewable 23 Energy Conference on Rosebud, you know, we became friends, 24 better friends that day. 25 And I ask that you remember the treaties, the trust 76 1 responsibility, the government to government relationship, you 2 know. What I call the -- I said this afternoon not biblical 3 sense, the holy trinity in Indian Country. You have the 4 treaties here, you have trust responsibility, and the 5 government to government relationship. 6 And that's -- that is the government to government 7 relationship, and the cultivation processes that started with 8 President Clinton to dialogue with Tribes on a government to 9 government basis based on the treaties. Because we are 10 saying, well, treaties aren't -- well, they are the past, you 11 know, it wasn't me, it wasn't me that passed those, you know. 12 But if you honor your ancestors, you realize they made a wise 13 decision clear back then. They met with my ancestors. You 14 have given up so much, this is how we are going to make it 15 right. 16 And I guess, you know, I will kind of close with a 17 little deal I told about my mother. My mother is a Yankton 18 Sioux and her relatives, you know, and she lived on White Swan 19 Community along the Missouri River close to Wagner, South 20 Dakota, on the Yankton Reservation. They lived there with the 21 extended families. Indian people have many people living in 22 even within one home, including back then. You had my mother 23 living with her brothers, living with their mother, and with 24 their grandmother's mother and father, great, great 25 grandparents, and then the grandmother before that. And when 77 1 they built the dam, they flooded the river, they were driven, 2 a whole Indian community, they were all driven from the river, 3 you know, they couldn't even move their homes, they were 4 flooded out, it went down the river, they lost everything. 5 Could barely move their livestock. And that you can -- you 6 know, so to this day it causes an intergenerational trauma. 7 So you know, my mother, that's -- my uncles are still alive, 8 still talk about this today like it happened yesterday. 9 Last year the DOE was going on around with the Army 10 Corps of Engineers, they authorized a purpose study. You 11 know, are we going to change them, what do we do so many years 12 later? And the issues even are so much different between 13 tribes and other stakeholders, you know. 14 So we ask you to come to our reservation and we can 15 further talk about these things too. 16 There is a book called "Dammed Indians." I'm not 17 cussing. "Dammed Indians." It's written by Michael Lawson. 18 It will explain further what tribes went through. 19 And I guess I will close and say we are in Todd 20 County where I live, the Rosebud Reservation. We are the 21 second poorest county in the United States. So when we look 22 at renewable energy development, we are trying to make 23 ourselves better, you know. But so we ask that you take into 24 consideration when we talk about being on the queue and 25 being -- things just working against us to distribute our 78 1 power, transmitting that power, and running into roadblocks 2 right and left. 3 But I guess I will say also that although we are the 4 second poorest county, we are a proud -- we remain a proud 5 people and we are rich in culture and spirituality. And with 6 that, I thank you for listening to me and I hope to see you 7 soon. 8 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much. Anyone else want to 9 speak? Yes, sir. 10 MR. BRETT HOFFMAN: Thank you very much. Thank you 11 for your indulgence. I will be very brief. I know everyone 12 wants to get home. My name is Brett Hoffman, B-R-E-T-T, 13 H-O-F-F-M-A-N. I am from Senator Tim Johnson's office. And I 14 have a letter from Senator Johnson that I will read tonight. 15 "Thank you for the opportunity to provide a few 16 comments at today's Listening Session on the Department of 17 Energy's Defining the Future Initiative. I regret that Senate 18 business has prevented me from attending in person. 19 "The Department of Energy has outlined broad areas in 20 which Western and other Power Marketing Administrations should 21 act to enhance transmission infrastructure. We all have an 22 interest in modernizing our electric grid and ensuring its 23 resiliency. I am encouraged that the DOE and WAPA are 24 increasing their outreach to customers and other stakeholders 25 through these workshops and listening sessions. 79 1 "Unfortunately, significant uncertainty and confusion 2 remains about what these initiatives will entail and how they 3 will be implemented. I have heard from numerous local 4 officials, public power utilities, and rural electric 5 cooperatives in South Dakota who are concerned that these 6 initiatives could affect costs and alter the current structure 7 of WAPA. I would encourage the Department of Energy and WAPA 8 to provide additional clarity to customers and to carefully 9 consider the feedback from these workshops and other written 10 comments. 11 "Congress continues to have high interest in this 12 issue. In June, I joined with Senator Hatch of Utah to lead a 13 bipartisan letter to Secretary Chu that garnered the 14 signatures of 40 Senators and 126 Members of the House of 15 Representatives. Our letter stressed the importance of the 16 federal power program in keeping electricity rates affordable 17 and reliable to our constituents and urged the Secretary to 18 pursue meaningful collaboration with stakeholders and Congress 19 prior to moving forward on these initiatives. I was pleased 20 that the Secretary's response reiterated the commitment to 21 maintaining cost-based rate structures, but we also need to 22 see additional detail on these efforts. 23 "Thank you again for the opportunity to offer a few 24 comments today. I remain keenly interested in ensuring that 25 the concerns of the PMA customers are thoroughly considered 80 1 and all stakeholders have sufficient opportunities to have 2 their voices heard. I look forward to a continued dialogue. 3 Sincerely, Tim Johnson." 4 MS. AZAR: Thank you. I saw other hands. Yes, 5 please, sir. 6 MR. JAROD JOHNSON: My name is Jarod Johnson. I am 7 from Watertown, South Dakota, and I am a journeyman lineman 8 and I did my training out in California. And being out there 9 I got to learn different ways to build power lines and see 10 different methods. 11 Since I became a journeyman six years ago, I have 12 been working storms everywhere throughout the country. I'd 13 just like to remind everybody that by not fixing our grid, I 14 worked Katrina, American citizens that didn't have power for a 15 month and a half, you know, and a lot of that was transmission 16 that went down. 17 And I got the opportunity to work with distribution 18 and transmission. I did work for WAPA as a contractor. And I 19 think when you have people that are willing to steal copper 20 off lines, it's only going to show that the prices are going 21 to go up. And the longer and longer we wait to redo the power 22 lines, the more dangerous it is for us. And it's when you go 23 to replace a pole that was bad ten years ago and you look at 24 how many linemen are getting hurt throughout the country. 25 Everybody here through a small utility or co-op, when your 81 1 guys' lines go down, they are out for a week and a half, two 2 weeks, you know, bring in a bunch of linemen, bring them back 3 up. 4 When transmission goes down, I go do a job in 5 Nebraska in 2007 and it took us 120 linemen to build 90 miles 6 of transmission, took us four and a half months. And I think 7 instead of everyone arguing about everything, the lines are 8 going to get rebuilt, they have to. They are going to fall 9 down. Everybody knows that. 10 I have seen lines and you get to certain areas, you 11 got to put the hooks on and go up a pole just like they did. 12 And now we fly the poles in. Well, you still got to go up 13 that pole, that's bad. And all the REA's and everything, the 14 first thing you say to all your employees is safety this, 15 safety this. I mean that's number one on any place you ever 16 go and work. 17 So I think we all need to figure out different ways 18 to -- like I can tell you my experiences. When I go and do 19 maintenance jobs, we -- somebody finds a snake and boom, job 20 is shut down. And I think whatever the railroads did back in 21 the day when they built power lines, that's what I think we 22 need to do. And when we come out and establish a right-of-way 23 that we can drive on and get something done is more important 24 than I think arguing about how much it's going to cost. Or I 25 don't think you can put a price on safety. 82 1 And there was line work at a small, small community 2 and one of my journeyman linemen, he was -- his son was 3 working on a line contracting to WAPA in California and a 4 steel tower fell over and crushed him. Now, you know, there 5 is a little girl's dad right there. 6 And I think another thing I would like to see is when 7 we do start rebuilding the stuff, we start using material 8 that's not from China, it's from America. Especially if it's 9 a government organization and using -- like anybody, any 10 lineman can tell you when you saw through an old bolt, it 11 takes you a lot longer, ruins the saw blade. That's because 12 it was built right. The stuff we are putting out now, I don't 13 think it's going to last because we are going with the 14 cheapest thing we can possibly get. 15 I think as long as we think about safety and the guys 16 that got to go up and climb them poles and work on that, try 17 to make it easier for us so the costs get down that way as 18 well. That's all I have. 19 MS. AZAR: Anyone else want to speak? Yes, please. 20 MR. BENJAMIN READY: Good evening. My name is 21 Benjamin Ready, Southeast Director for Senator John Thune's 22 office here in Sioux Falls. Ready, R-E-A-D-Y. Thank you. 23 First I want to say thank you on behalf of Senator 24 Thune for holding two meetings regarding this initiative in 25 the great State of South Dakota. I appreciate that. I did 83 1 sign up to speak on the record tonight. I hope that the RSVP 2 doesn't get lost with the other comments that will be made 3 this evening. I will attempt to make my remarks fairly 4 concise this evening as one of our staffers had a chance to 5 speak out in Rapid City at the hearing out there a couple 6 weeks ago. And to be honest, others in this room have done a 7 much better job of talking about these things as they work on 8 these issues every single day. But I want to attempt to 9 address Secretary Chu's March 2012 memo as it represents a 10 significant expansion of Western Area's role as a wholesale 11 power and transmission provider. 12 While Western's role has changed over the past 13 decades, its core mission is still to market power generated 14 at federal dams at the lowest possible rate consistent with 15 sound business principles. Senator Thune is significantly 16 concerned that Secretary Chu's memo lays out several policy 17 goals that appear to conflict with this basic tenet. In many 18 cases, utilities in South Dakota and across Western's 19 footprint are already pursuing policy goals in Secretary Chu's 20 memo, which we have heard many examples here tonight. 21 Retail electric utilities are in the best position to 22 meet the needs of rate payers regarding integrating variable 23 sources of energy, increasing energy efficiency, and deploying 24 new technology such as installing smart meters and electric 25 vehicles if they are actually demanded here by consumers. 84 1 Expanding demands on Western's customers through 2 political directions from Washington, DC, will only drive up 3 costs for rate payers here in South Dakota without providing 4 measurable benefits. 5 Additionally, the Secretary's memo also raises 6 significant legal questions about the extent of Western's 7 statutory limitations. While PMAs are authorized by a variety 8 of federal statutes, the Secretary's memo recommends incentive 9 based rates for complying with new policy objectives. These 10 new rates seem to violate the statutory requirement for 11 cost-based rates. 12 There is a lot of uncertainty in the economy right 13 now and unfortunately, a lot of that uncertainty is coming 14 from new regulations out of Washington, DC, and oftentimes 15 bypassing Congress. Senator Thune is hearing that this memo 16 and the potential rate increases that may follow are only 17 adding to this uncertainty. The decision to expand Western's 18 mission should protect businesses and families from high rates 19 at a time when we can least afford it. 20 As the Department of Energy continues to pursue this 21 new agenda for Power Marketing Agencies, I encourage you to 22 stay within the legal confines of Western's authority and 23 ensure that any increased costs are met with measurable and 24 commensurate benefits. Additionally, I encourage you not only 25 to listen to, but act upon the concerns of Western's current 85 1 customers, which we have heard tonight. The details of this 2 new mission should come from the bottom up, from these folks, 3 not from the top down. 4 Lastly, and adding to that note, Senator Thune, along 5 with several other members of the United States Senate from 6 both parties, both Republican and Democrat, are extremely 7 concerned by the notion that the final recommendations may not 8 be made public. Refusing to make these recommendations public 9 would be an insult to everyone who has spoken here this 10 evening or at the other stakeholder workshops and Listening 11 Sessions. On Senator Thune's behalf, I would like to 12 encourage the Joint Outreach Team of the Department of Energy 13 to make those final recommendations public. Thank you. 14 MS. AZAR: Thank you very much. Anyone else want to 15 speak? 16 (No response.) 17 MS. AZAR: If not, thank you, everybody, for coming. 18 And if you have more comments, please don't forget to submit 19 them online at JOT@wapa.gov. Thank you very much and good 20 night. 21 (Whereupon, the proceedings were concluded at 8:20 22 p.m.) 23 * * * * * * * * * 24 25 86 1 STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA ) : CERTIFICATE 2 COUNTY OF LINCOLN ) 3 4 I, Terri Lembcke Schildhauer, Registered Professional 5 Reporter and Notary Public in the above-named County and 6 State: 7 Do hereby certify that the foregoing pages 1 - 85, 8 inclusive, are a true and correct transcript of my stenotype 9 notes made during the time of the proceedings of the Western 10 Area Power Association. 11 In testimony whereof, I have hereto set my hand this 12 ________ day of August, 2012. 13 14 15 ______________________________ Terri Lembcke Schildhauer, RPR 16 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public 17 18 My Commission Expires: 7/19/17 19 20 21 22 23 24 25